1 00:00:41,690 --> 00:00:29,360 [Music] 2 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:41,700 hello to all you heroes out there this 3 00:00:44,690 --> 00:00:42,510 is Ryan 4 00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:44,700 the original outlaw of the airwaves 5 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:46,910 bringing you another episode of hero 6 00:00:53,959 --> 00:00:50,250 paranormal podcast with all that is 7 00:00:56,299 --> 00:00:53,969 going on with virus frenzy coronavirus 8 00:00:57,860 --> 00:00:56,309 kovat 19 whatever you want to call it 9 00:01:00,549 --> 00:00:57,870 it's another plague another drama 10 00:01:03,850 --> 00:01:00,559 another issue in the human experience 11 00:01:06,980 --> 00:01:03,860 this is very trying for all of us and 12 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:06,990 you all have to remember that you are 13 00:01:13,820 --> 00:01:10,170 the heroes in the story the story being 14 00:01:15,649 --> 00:01:13,830 this life that we're living and I'm very 15 00:01:17,179 --> 00:01:15,659 excited to talk about history too 16 00:01:19,490 --> 00:01:17,189 because this these types of things 17 00:01:23,179 --> 00:01:19,500 happen over and over again we know that 18 00:01:25,630 --> 00:01:23,189 we've dealt with other issues and we're 19 00:01:28,550 --> 00:01:25,640 gonna delve into a little bit of 20 00:01:32,870 --> 00:01:28,560 American history United States history 21 00:01:34,850 --> 00:01:32,880 and how it has been woven into the 22 00:01:38,330 --> 00:01:34,860 fabric of our school system and other 23 00:01:42,590 --> 00:01:38,340 things and how some believe things that 24 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:42,600 just well probably aren't true and I'm 25 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:45,570 extremely excited for our guest today he 26 00:01:52,389 --> 00:01:49,530 is a writer an editor he's currently 27 00:01:55,219 --> 00:01:52,399 working on a number of exciting projects 28 00:01:59,359 --> 00:01:55,229 among other things you may know him from 29 00:02:02,480 --> 00:01:59,369 Jason Colavito comm he also manages the 30 00:02:05,810 --> 00:02:02,490 website the lost civilizations dot-com 31 00:02:08,059 --> 00:02:05,820 he is an author editor and skeptical 32 00:02:11,589 --> 00:02:08,069 xeno archaeologist specializing in the 33 00:02:13,559 --> 00:02:11,599 intersection of horror fiction and 34 00:02:16,770 --> 00:02:13,569 science fiction 35 00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:16,780 and also pseudoscience he's an author of 36 00:02:21,869 --> 00:02:18,760 several books including the cult of 37 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:21,879 alien gods and jason and the argonauts 38 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:26,290 through the ages he is well very 39 00:02:30,959 --> 00:02:28,870 knowledgeable about many many things and 40 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:30,969 I've wanted to talk to him for a very 41 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:33,310 long time so this is a real treat for me 42 00:02:41,809 --> 00:02:36,370 we are going to attack an issue that 43 00:02:45,539 --> 00:02:41,819 really gets to the core of those who can 44 00:02:47,220 --> 00:02:45,549 well sway the masses into believing 45 00:02:49,649 --> 00:02:47,230 things they want them to believe now 46 00:02:51,750 --> 00:02:49,659 this is not current events however it 47 00:02:53,729 --> 00:02:51,760 does have some issues with current 48 00:02:56,759 --> 00:02:53,739 events because not much has changed as 49 00:02:59,839 --> 00:02:56,769 far as the governed and the governing 50 00:03:04,289 --> 00:02:59,849 the governing body is able to insert 51 00:03:07,349 --> 00:03:04,299 myth into reality and therefore create a 52 00:03:10,140 --> 00:03:07,359 history which truly isn't real we've all 53 00:03:13,110 --> 00:03:10,150 heard about fake news and how the media 54 00:03:16,020 --> 00:03:13,120 can literally create a crisis out of 55 00:03:20,369 --> 00:03:16,030 nothing they can create history out of 56 00:03:23,939 --> 00:03:20,379 nothing and basically sway the mindset 57 00:03:25,619 --> 00:03:23,949 of the governed or you and I anyway this 58 00:03:27,809 --> 00:03:25,629 is going to be a great podcast I just 59 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:27,819 know it Jason Colavito is knowledgeable 60 00:03:33,270 --> 00:03:30,250 in this aspect more than just about 61 00:03:35,999 --> 00:03:33,280 anyone I know his book is truly amazing 62 00:03:38,309 --> 00:03:36,009 it's a work that has to be read what 63 00:03:41,759 --> 00:03:38,319 we're going to delve into is the mound 64 00:03:43,469 --> 00:03:41,769 builders and the mound builder myth it's 65 00:03:46,140 --> 00:03:43,479 a book I highly recommend you can go to 66 00:03:49,679 --> 00:03:46,150 Amazon and find it just look up Jason 67 00:03:53,789 --> 00:03:49,689 Colavito the mound builder myth history 68 00:03:55,530 --> 00:03:53,799 and the hunt for a lost white race I'm 69 00:03:58,319 --> 00:03:55,540 gonna read a little bit about what we're 70 00:04:01,170 --> 00:03:58,329 going to get into let's say this is 71 00:04:03,990 --> 00:04:01,180 about the book and let's say you found 72 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:04,000 that a few dozen people operating at the 73 00:04:09,449 --> 00:04:07,090 highest levels of society conspired to 74 00:04:11,159 --> 00:04:09,459 create a false ancient history of the 75 00:04:14,219 --> 00:04:11,169 American continent to promote a 76 00:04:17,039 --> 00:04:14,229 religious white supremacist agenda in 77 00:04:20,009 --> 00:04:17,049 the service of supposedly patriotic 78 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:20,019 ideals would you call it fake news in 79 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:22,570 nineteenth-century America this was in 80 00:04:29,790 --> 00:04:27,370 fact our filtration the mound bill 81 00:04:32,730 --> 00:04:29,800 myth is the first book to chronicle the 82 00:04:35,310 --> 00:04:32,740 attempt to recast the Native American 83 00:04:38,450 --> 00:04:35,320 burial mounds as the work of a lost 84 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:38,460 white race of true Native Americans 85 00:04:42,689 --> 00:04:40,570 Thomas Jefferson's pioneering 86 00:04:44,879 --> 00:04:42,699 archaeology concluded that the earthen 87 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:44,889 mounds were the work of Native Americans 88 00:04:51,570 --> 00:04:48,370 in the 1894 report of the Bureau of 89 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:51,580 American ethnology Cyrus Thomas 90 00:04:55,770 --> 00:04:53,650 concurred drawing on two decades of 91 00:04:58,469 --> 00:04:55,780 research but in the century in between 92 00:05:00,990 --> 00:04:58,479 the light took hold with presidents 93 00:05:03,420 --> 00:05:01,000 Andrew Jackson William Henry Harrison 94 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:03,430 and Abraham Lincoln adding their 95 00:05:08,250 --> 00:05:05,710 approval and the Mormon Church among 96 00:05:10,950 --> 00:05:08,260 those benefiting Jason Colavito traces 97 00:05:13,140 --> 00:05:10,960 this monumental deception from the 98 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:13,150 farthest reaches of the frontier to the 99 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:15,550 halls of Congress mapping a century long 100 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:18,970 conspiracy to fabricate and promote a 101 00:05:24,330 --> 00:05:22,570 false ancient history and enumerated its 102 00:05:26,909 --> 00:05:24,340 devastating consequences for the 103 00:05:28,860 --> 00:05:26,919 contemporary Native people built upon 104 00:05:30,779 --> 00:05:28,870 primary sources and first-person 105 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:30,789 accounts the story that the mound 106 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:32,710 builder myth tells is a forgotten 107 00:05:36,779 --> 00:05:35,289 chapter of American history but one that 108 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:36,789 reads like The Da Vinci Code 109 00:05:43,230 --> 00:05:40,090 as it plays out at the upper reaches of 110 00:05:45,690 --> 00:05:43,240 government religion and science and as 111 00:05:48,270 --> 00:05:45,700 far-fetched as it now might seem that I 112 00:05:52,050 --> 00:05:48,280 lost white race once ruled prehistoric 113 00:05:54,270 --> 00:05:52,060 America the damage done by this ancient 114 00:05:56,930 --> 00:05:54,280 myth has clear echoes in today's 115 00:05:59,520 --> 00:05:56,940 arguments over white nationalism 116 00:06:01,589 --> 00:05:59,530 multiculturalism alternative facts and 117 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:01,599 the role of science and the control of 118 00:06:07,890 --> 00:06:04,710 knowledge in public life and with that 119 00:06:11,719 --> 00:06:07,900 Jason Colavito welcome to the hero 120 00:06:15,659 --> 00:06:11,729 paranormal podcast it's great to be here 121 00:06:20,610 --> 00:06:15,669 I'm super excited to talk about these 122 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:20,620 mounds and how the very few elite it 123 00:06:26,490 --> 00:06:22,870 seems like in the past had an agenda 124 00:06:28,379 --> 00:06:26,500 with what the average American thought 125 00:06:31,890 --> 00:06:28,389 about these mounds and-and-and what 126 00:06:34,620 --> 00:06:31,900 started you on this journey Jason well 127 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:34,630 I've been interested in strange ideas 128 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:36,849 about history for a very long time 129 00:06:39,959 --> 00:06:38,050 I've written several books on the 130 00:06:43,919 --> 00:06:39,969 subject and have written a blog about it 131 00:06:46,369 --> 00:06:43,929 for more than 10 years now but the 132 00:06:48,510 --> 00:06:46,379 mountain Builder myth in particular was 133 00:06:53,129 --> 00:06:48,520 specifically interesting to me because 134 00:06:53,969 --> 00:06:53,139 it was a story of odd history and 135 00:06:56,879 --> 00:06:53,979 strange idea that was happening 136 00:06:59,760 --> 00:06:56,889 practically in my own backyard I grew up 137 00:07:01,379 --> 00:06:59,770 in a small town in upstate New York 138 00:07:04,409 --> 00:07:01,389 and in the center of town was one of 139 00:07:07,260 --> 00:07:04,419 these mountains that had a legend about 140 00:07:08,999 --> 00:07:07,270 an old Indian and a curse and all of 141 00:07:11,759 --> 00:07:09,009 that sort of thing and it was the same 142 00:07:14,850 --> 00:07:11,769 area of upstate New York where the 143 00:07:17,939 --> 00:07:14,860 Mormons originated and where they first 144 00:07:20,189 --> 00:07:17,949 told the story about the mountain that 145 00:07:22,469 --> 00:07:20,199 they believed held the remains of the 146 00:07:26,759 --> 00:07:22,479 lost races that had populated the United 147 00:07:29,639 --> 00:07:26,769 States before the time of Christ so an 148 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:29,649 after I suppose the timeline is 149 00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:31,449 stretches into the Middle Ages I guess 150 00:07:38,579 --> 00:07:35,110 but it was a story that I've always been 151 00:07:40,469 --> 00:07:38,589 aware of and it's always been around me 152 00:07:43,230 --> 00:07:40,479 for my whole life and I wanted to 153 00:07:45,119 --> 00:07:43,240 explore it in detail and take a deeper 154 00:07:47,219 --> 00:07:45,129 look at where those ideas came from how 155 00:07:49,829 --> 00:07:47,229 they developed and the consequences that 156 00:07:52,649 --> 00:07:49,839 they had for the people who lived in 157 00:07:54,829 --> 00:07:52,659 that era of the 19th century when the 158 00:07:57,119 --> 00:07:54,839 mound builder myth was at its height 159 00:07:59,699 --> 00:07:57,129 today we you know kind of see the 160 00:08:00,779 --> 00:07:59,709 mountain builder myth as a weird thing 161 00:08:03,329 --> 00:08:00,789 to happen in the past 162 00:08:04,889 --> 00:08:03,339 but despite the fact that there are 163 00:08:07,290 --> 00:08:04,899 still people who believe very strongly 164 00:08:09,949 --> 00:08:07,300 in the idea that the mounds were built 165 00:08:13,790 --> 00:08:09,959 by some kind of lost race of giants or 166 00:08:18,359 --> 00:08:13,800 Europeans or something like that 167 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:18,369 the real devastating consequences of 168 00:08:21,149 --> 00:08:20,110 that story took place in the 19th 169 00:08:23,730 --> 00:08:21,159 century when the United States 170 00:08:25,980 --> 00:08:23,740 government - actually endorsed some of 171 00:08:29,549 --> 00:08:25,990 those ideas and use them as a 172 00:08:31,199 --> 00:08:29,559 justification for acts of cultural and 173 00:08:32,850 --> 00:08:31,209 even physical genocide against Native 174 00:08:37,589 --> 00:08:32,860 Americans Wow 175 00:08:39,990 --> 00:08:37,599 that is wild and you speak about the 176 00:08:42,749 --> 00:08:40,000 consequences that it had for the people 177 00:08:44,460 --> 00:08:42,759 of the time Jason what what type of it 178 00:08:46,319 --> 00:08:44,470 was it mostly the Native Americans that 179 00:08:50,370 --> 00:08:46,329 felt those consequences or whether other 180 00:08:50,770 --> 00:08:50,380 consequences as well felt well the start 181 00:08:53,110 --> 00:08:50,780 of the 182 00:08:55,810 --> 00:08:53,120 builder myth is really the story of how 183 00:08:59,680 --> 00:08:55,820 the United States tried to create an 184 00:09:03,340 --> 00:08:59,690 imaginary past for itself to rival the 185 00:09:05,860 --> 00:09:03,350 ancient history of Europe and in the 186 00:09:08,470 --> 00:09:05,870 18th and 19th centuries white Americans 187 00:09:10,540 --> 00:09:08,480 were the ruling class at the United 188 00:09:12,820 --> 00:09:10,550 States but there was a profound sense 189 00:09:15,550 --> 00:09:12,830 that because the United States was such 190 00:09:18,630 --> 00:09:15,560 a young country that he didn't have the 191 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:18,640 roots the connection to the land that 192 00:09:24,730 --> 00:09:21,890 the Europeans had in Europe when the 193 00:09:29,230 --> 00:09:24,740 Europeans could speak of the Roman 194 00:09:32,410 --> 00:09:29,240 Empire and of the Germanic hordes and 195 00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:32,420 all of the great peoples of the past the 196 00:09:37,630 --> 00:09:35,270 United States wanted to separate itself 197 00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:37,640 from that European heritage but also to 198 00:09:42,430 --> 00:09:39,200 have that kind of deep connection to 199 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:42,440 what happens before so white Americans 200 00:09:46,900 --> 00:09:44,810 sort of created this myth that there had 201 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:46,910 been a white race that inhabited the 202 00:09:51,820 --> 00:09:48,530 United States before the Native 203 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:51,830 Americans came and therefore white 204 00:09:56,829 --> 00:09:54,290 Americans were simply restoring the 205 00:09:59,350 --> 00:09:56,839 United States to his previous ancient 206 00:10:00,460 --> 00:09:59,360 greatness and one of the consequences 207 00:10:05,050 --> 00:10:00,470 for that 208 00:10:07,060 --> 00:10:05,060 was to use that idea to justify removing 209 00:10:09,850 --> 00:10:07,070 Native Americans from territories that 210 00:10:11,410 --> 00:10:09,860 were occupied by white Americans this 211 00:10:13,930 --> 00:10:11,420 ultimately resulted in the Trail of 212 00:10:16,660 --> 00:10:13,940 Tears now it's not the thing that 213 00:10:18,010 --> 00:10:16,670 specifically caused this what Americans 214 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:18,020 wanted to get rid of the Native 215 00:10:24,820 --> 00:10:21,410 Americans anyway but this kind of bad 216 00:10:28,210 --> 00:10:24,830 history that historiography and frankly 217 00:10:30,340 --> 00:10:28,220 racist ideology helped to push those 218 00:10:32,829 --> 00:10:30,350 ideas along and helped to amplify and 219 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:32,839 justify those actions by appealing to an 220 00:10:38,950 --> 00:10:35,810 imaginary past that never was I see I 221 00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:38,960 see the motivation and I can see how you 222 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:40,880 know this land isn't theirs it's really 223 00:10:47,650 --> 00:10:44,690 ours would echo in the minds of settlers 224 00:10:50,620 --> 00:10:47,660 in you you mentioned that this this word 225 00:10:54,070 --> 00:10:50,630 got back to Europe and I guess my 226 00:10:57,700 --> 00:10:54,080 question is it's amazing how easily this 227 00:10:59,800 --> 00:10:57,710 was done and how it took root in our 228 00:11:02,570 --> 00:10:59,810 history and people started to believe it 229 00:11:05,329 --> 00:11:02,580 and people actually still do believe it 230 00:11:09,139 --> 00:11:05,339 how did this happen with such ease well 231 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:09,149 it's not that it was an easy process if 232 00:11:15,050 --> 00:11:11,970 you go back to the late 18th century in 233 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:15,060 the 1780s you have people like Thomas 234 00:11:19,850 --> 00:11:17,490 Jefferson who actively investigated 235 00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:19,860 mountains and correctly concluded that 236 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:21,540 they were the work of Native Americans 237 00:11:26,690 --> 00:11:23,850 and in fact right up until around that 238 00:11:29,449 --> 00:11:26,700 time that was the widespread and 239 00:11:30,769 --> 00:11:29,459 accurate belief people knew and 240 00:11:33,519 --> 00:11:30,779 understood where the mountains came 241 00:11:36,019 --> 00:11:33,529 problem how they had been built and 242 00:11:38,660 --> 00:11:36,029 educated people around the world at I 243 00:11:42,319 --> 00:11:38,670 had no problem attributing them to 244 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:42,329 Native Americans it was really the 245 00:11:47,660 --> 00:11:44,730 motivation sort of motivated reasoning 246 00:11:50,180 --> 00:11:47,670 led from the highest parts of the United 247 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:50,190 States government and from elite 248 00:11:55,699 --> 00:11:53,850 academic institutions you see it in the 249 00:11:59,600 --> 00:11:55,709 works of several presidents Andrew 250 00:12:01,069 --> 00:11:59,610 Jackson among them and Harrison you see 251 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:01,079 it also coming from the Smithsonian 252 00:12:09,250 --> 00:12:04,410 Institution it's that sort of elite 253 00:12:12,110 --> 00:12:09,260 acceptance of the fake idea and the 254 00:12:15,530 --> 00:12:12,120 gradual accumulation of arguments in 255 00:12:18,829 --> 00:12:15,540 favor of white mound builders or giant 256 00:12:21,380 --> 00:12:18,839 mound builders or they also attributed 257 00:12:24,230 --> 00:12:21,390 them to toll tax Vikings all sorts of 258 00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:24,240 other people but it's this motivated 259 00:12:30,170 --> 00:12:27,630 reasoning that when we proposed this 260 00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,180 idea then it has good consequences for 261 00:12:35,210 --> 00:12:33,360 us so let's accept it let you see it's a 262 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:35,220 gradual process that begins to snowball 263 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:36,930 and eventually it reaches a critical 264 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:41,010 mass so while at first it was just a 265 00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:44,730 couple of important people advocating 266 00:12:50,630 --> 00:12:47,760 for this idea more and more of them 267 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:50,640 begin to accept it as 1790s turn into 268 00:12:55,819 --> 00:12:52,850 the 1800s in the 1810s 269 00:12:58,670 --> 00:12:55,829 until finally it reaches a point where 270 00:13:01,430 --> 00:12:58,680 not accepting it puts you in the 271 00:13:04,340 --> 00:13:01,440 minority and at that point it's sort of 272 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:04,350 spirals and becomes a self-fulfilling 273 00:13:09,410 --> 00:13:07,110 prophecy that people believed because 274 00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:09,420 other people were believing and if you 275 00:13:12,410 --> 00:13:10,800 found evidence that went against that 276 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:12,420 well you didn't want to tell anybody 277 00:13:15,310 --> 00:13:14,130 because it would start to jeopardize 278 00:13:18,340 --> 00:13:15,320 your position 279 00:13:19,629 --> 00:13:18,350 in elite society because if you were 280 00:13:20,829 --> 00:13:19,639 saying well Native Americans built the 281 00:13:22,569 --> 00:13:20,839 mountains well who are you are you 282 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:22,579 against white people use some kind of 283 00:13:26,740 --> 00:13:24,410 person who's in favor of Native 284 00:13:30,129 --> 00:13:26,750 Americans and nobody wanted that back 285 00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:30,139 then so what you see is there that 286 00:13:34,569 --> 00:13:32,000 social pressure develops to believe in 287 00:13:37,809 --> 00:13:34,579 an idea that only a few decades earlier 288 00:13:40,180 --> 00:13:37,819 everyone knew wasn't true and that kind 289 00:13:42,910 --> 00:13:40,190 of elite social pressure coming from the 290 00:13:45,910 --> 00:13:42,920 very top levels of academia from 291 00:13:50,620 --> 00:13:45,920 governments from society trickles down 292 00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:50,630 and reinforces the the notion that the 293 00:13:57,069 --> 00:13:53,360 mound builders are somehow different 294 00:14:00,189 --> 00:13:57,079 other not Native American in order to 295 00:14:03,069 --> 00:14:00,199 justify the political and social 296 00:14:05,829 --> 00:14:03,079 policies that were advocating against 297 00:14:09,069 --> 00:14:05,839 Native American interests it is 298 00:14:11,699 --> 00:14:09,079 absolutely fascinating Jason there there 299 00:14:14,110 --> 00:14:11,709 is a mention that this not only 300 00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:14,120 benefited but may have included the 301 00:14:22,079 --> 00:14:16,790 Mormon Church at the time how did that 302 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:22,089 take place well the early history of 303 00:14:29,139 --> 00:14:27,050 Mormonism is of course somewhat disputed 304 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:29,149 because there's the official version 305 00:14:36,490 --> 00:14:32,290 given out by the Latter day Saints and 306 00:14:40,319 --> 00:14:36,500 there's also the less credulous version 307 00:14:43,629 --> 00:14:40,329 that mainstream historians might prefer 308 00:14:47,170 --> 00:14:43,639 if you are a believer you would believe 309 00:14:50,259 --> 00:14:47,180 that the story that the Mormons told is 310 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:50,269 that an angel came down and showed 311 00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:52,010 Joseph Smith where to find ancient 312 00:14:57,970 --> 00:14:53,990 records of the Lost Mountain builders 313 00:15:01,179 --> 00:14:57,980 and that in so doing learned that they 314 00:15:04,030 --> 00:15:01,189 were the Lost Tribes of Israel who had 315 00:15:09,220 --> 00:15:04,040 colonized the future United States a 316 00:15:11,889 --> 00:15:09,230 long time ago if you are not a believer 317 00:15:17,499 --> 00:15:11,899 and don't subscribe to the angel theory 318 00:15:21,490 --> 00:15:17,509 it is more likely that what you see in 319 00:15:24,220 --> 00:15:21,500 the story of Mormonism is an effort to 320 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:24,230 reflect the larger trends in society and 321 00:15:28,610 --> 00:15:27,050 create a religion for the United States 322 00:15:30,830 --> 00:15:28,620 based on the 323 00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:30,840 merging new history that was being 324 00:15:36,380 --> 00:15:33,510 created for the ancient land that would 325 00:15:39,740 --> 00:15:36,390 become the United States so in the Book 326 00:15:40,910 --> 00:15:39,750 of Mormon you see references now he 327 00:15:42,950 --> 00:15:40,920 doesn't specifically talk about 328 00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:42,960 mountains in the Book of Mormon but he 329 00:15:50,750 --> 00:15:48,000 refers to the Lost Tribes and to other 330 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:50,760 elements of the mountain building that 331 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:53,850 are widespread in the literature of the 332 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:56,250 era other books that were published in 333 00:16:00,340 --> 00:15:57,570 the years leading up to the Book of 334 00:16:02,810 --> 00:16:00,350 Mormon talk about mountain builders and 335 00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:02,820 their connection to the Lost Tribes of 336 00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:04,710 Israel how the mountains might have been 337 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:07,590 the work of ancient Jews and so on so 338 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:09,570 what Joseph Smith does is he takes these 339 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:12,330 ideas and he recast them in religious 340 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:16,650 terms not only is the United States the 341 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:17,970 place where the Lost Tribes of Israel 342 00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:20,370 hung out a claim that went back in the 343 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:23,910 1600s but the United States is now a 344 00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:27,530 holy land that is sanctified by this 345 00:16:35,420 --> 00:16:33,000 translation of the Valastro to the 346 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:35,430 United States by the arrival of Jesus in 347 00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:38,010 the United States and so on so what you 348 00:16:45,790 --> 00:16:40,590 see is the mound builder myth becoming 349 00:16:49,550 --> 00:16:45,800 part of a foundation to help take and 350 00:16:53,870 --> 00:16:49,560 old-world religious ideas and recast 351 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:53,880 them in a new world context yeah I 352 00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:56,490 totally see how that could merge and 353 00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:00,000 work very very smoothly in that time 354 00:17:06,970 --> 00:17:03,360 period controversy over how much of 355 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:06,980 Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon is 356 00:17:13,550 --> 00:17:09,890 original to him and how much has been 357 00:17:16,190 --> 00:17:13,560 shall we say repurposed from earlier 358 00:17:19,390 --> 00:17:16,200 books that were written in the decade or 359 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:19,400 so leading up to the Book of Mormon and 360 00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:21,570 we don't where we want to get into all 361 00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:23,120 of the details of that because that's 362 00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:25,980 incredibly complicated textual question 363 00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:30,080 and also these people really upset but 364 00:17:34,730 --> 00:17:32,820 there is definitely a similarity and at 365 00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:34,740 the very least you can see that there 366 00:17:40,060 --> 00:17:38,880 was a widespread set of ideas about Lost 367 00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:40,070 Tribes and mound builder 368 00:17:47,710 --> 00:17:43,880 that were present and popular in that 369 00:17:50,350 --> 00:17:47,720 time period yes and there's you know 370 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:50,360 there was some significance if other 371 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:52,850 cultures as well I noticed that uh you 372 00:17:58,330 --> 00:17:55,250 know you hear about we Dakota and you 373 00:18:00,520 --> 00:17:58,340 hear in Peru and throughout Central 374 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:00,530 America their culture has its own 375 00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:03,650 version of a tale and it seems like at 376 00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:06,320 that time period about the cross and the 377 00:18:10,450 --> 00:18:09,110 mound in 1540 that if you could tell our 378 00:18:13,660 --> 00:18:10,460 listeners a little bit about that I 379 00:18:16,870 --> 00:18:13,670 think it's fascinating i beginni of my 380 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:16,880 book I tell the story of her nun de Soto 381 00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:20,570 and his journey across the southern 382 00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:23,600 United States and the mountains that he 383 00:18:33,610 --> 00:18:27,520 encountered on the way de Soto 384 00:18:35,470 --> 00:18:33,620 ran across a mound and what he did was 385 00:18:39,460 --> 00:18:35,480 he put a cross on top of it and cleaned 386 00:18:43,230 --> 00:18:39,470 it for Christianity and it was a sort of 387 00:18:47,980 --> 00:18:43,240 symbolic of the European effort to claim 388 00:18:50,530 --> 00:18:47,990 mountains in favor of Christianity and 389 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:50,540 European culture it's a process that 390 00:18:54,130 --> 00:18:52,010 would be repeated across the United 391 00:18:56,970 --> 00:18:54,140 States for centuries become where 392 00:19:00,520 --> 00:18:56,980 mountains were repurposed as places for 393 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:00,530 Europeans as I mentioned at the 394 00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:03,770 beginning of the podcast in my home town 395 00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:05,360 there was a mound in the center of town 396 00:19:11,290 --> 00:19:07,700 and it's located the inside a cemetery 397 00:19:15,370 --> 00:19:11,300 and that's one of the most popular you 398 00:19:18,010 --> 00:19:15,380 reuses for mounds in the early colonial 399 00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:18,020 era because they were believed to be 400 00:19:22,510 --> 00:19:20,360 burial mounds for Native Americans they 401 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:22,520 were repurposed as centerpieces for 402 00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:25,130 early cemeteries and Europeans and 403 00:19:32,010 --> 00:19:27,740 European Americans would bury their dead 404 00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:32,020 in and around it and a way to sort of 405 00:19:39,550 --> 00:19:35,270 symbolically claim the territory for 406 00:19:42,580 --> 00:19:39,560 themselves so it's really a case of 407 00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:42,590 people claiming things that weren't 408 00:19:46,930 --> 00:19:44,480 theirs as their own this has happened 409 00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:46,940 over and over again there were 410 00:19:53,230 --> 00:19:49,720 individuals at the time who were 411 00:19:53,769 --> 00:19:53,240 believing in this quite fervently but 412 00:19:55,570 --> 00:19:53,779 there are 413 00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,580 still at this time period people who 414 00:20:02,019 --> 00:19:57,200 believe this to this day could we go 415 00:20:05,229 --> 00:20:02,029 into that a little bit sure there is a 416 00:20:07,330 --> 00:20:05,239 concerted effort among a small minority 417 00:20:11,859 --> 00:20:07,340 of people to continue to push Mountain 418 00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:11,869 Builder myth and many of those are what 419 00:20:18,099 --> 00:20:15,710 I would call fringe history types or 420 00:20:21,479 --> 00:20:18,109 pseudo history types other people who 421 00:20:23,709 --> 00:20:21,489 are interested in ancient mysteries 422 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:23,719 basically if you could see it on the 423 00:20:29,589 --> 00:20:26,570 History Channel it's probably I said 424 00:20:32,079 --> 00:20:29,599 something like that when you see shows 425 00:20:35,459 --> 00:20:32,089 like ancient aliens or search for the 426 00:20:37,959 --> 00:20:35,469 lost Giants or those sorts of on 427 00:20:39,549 --> 00:20:37,969 programs that make really wild and 428 00:20:41,709 --> 00:20:39,559 extreme claims about history they're 429 00:20:44,289 --> 00:20:41,719 reflecting that particular subcultures 430 00:20:45,940 --> 00:20:44,299 beliefs there are people who continue to 431 00:20:48,129 --> 00:20:45,950 push the mound builder myth even though 432 00:20:50,019 --> 00:20:48,139 the idea that the mounds were built by 433 00:20:53,019 --> 00:20:50,029 giants or Europeans or what-have-you 434 00:20:56,649 --> 00:20:53,029 was almost conclusively debunked in the 435 00:20:59,229 --> 00:20:56,659 1890s now more than a century later we 436 00:21:01,989 --> 00:20:59,239 see that those the older ideas from 437 00:21:06,339 --> 00:21:01,999 before that time keep getting recycled 438 00:21:10,139 --> 00:21:06,349 in somewhat popular books about ancient 439 00:21:16,619 --> 00:21:10,149 mysteries and odd claims for example 440 00:21:20,369 --> 00:21:16,629 there is a Christian blogger podcaster 441 00:21:23,709 --> 00:21:20,379 YouTube star etc named la Marzulli who 442 00:21:26,889 --> 00:21:23,719 promotes an evangelical Christian agenda 443 00:21:29,379 --> 00:21:26,899 and part of that is the search for what 444 00:21:32,499 --> 00:21:29,389 he called the Nephilim who are the 445 00:21:35,019 --> 00:21:32,509 Giants from the book of Genesis and he 446 00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:35,029 uses old ideas from the mountain builder 447 00:21:39,609 --> 00:21:37,940 to claim that the mounds are not the 448 00:21:42,969 --> 00:21:39,619 work of Native Americans but were part 449 00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:42,979 of the Nephilim culture and therefore 450 00:21:50,169 --> 00:21:45,080 the United States is part of this 451 00:21:52,869 --> 00:21:50,179 worldwide Nephilim society that was 452 00:21:55,810 --> 00:21:52,879 wiped out by the Great Flood the idea of 453 00:21:59,200 --> 00:21:55,820 course is to connect the land back to 454 00:22:02,109 --> 00:21:59,210 the Bible and therefore sort of in this 455 00:22:03,579 --> 00:22:02,119 sort of inverted way demonically so to 456 00:22:06,460 --> 00:22:03,589 speak 457 00:22:07,420 --> 00:22:06,470 cast United States as part of the 458 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:07,430 biblical salvation 459 00:22:11,940 --> 00:22:09,890 history if the Nephilim were here then 460 00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:11,950 the United States must be part of the 461 00:22:16,150 --> 00:22:14,960 great story being told in the Bible even 462 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:16,160 though it's not you know specifically 463 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:17,690 mentioned anywhere in the Bible 464 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:19,310 on account of not being known at the 465 00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:24,010 time so that's one area where modern 466 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:27,200 types are pursuing mountain builders 467 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:29,810 stories but another area where that 468 00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:32,180 happens or the so called gigant ologists 469 00:22:38,890 --> 00:22:35,600 who are looking for giants somewhere 470 00:22:41,470 --> 00:22:38,900 anywhere in history their motivations 471 00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:41,480 tend to be mixed some of them are 472 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:44,030 interested in pursuing a Christian 473 00:22:50,050 --> 00:22:46,730 agenda at the Nephilim theorists some of 474 00:22:52,420 --> 00:22:50,060 them are simply looking for unusual and 475 00:22:56,890 --> 00:22:52,430 oddball ideas and more than a few of 476 00:22:59,920 --> 00:22:56,900 them pursue Giants out of a distrust of 477 00:23:02,890 --> 00:22:59,930 academia and a fear that social elites 478 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:02,900 are trying to impose an agenda that they 479 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:05,510 disagree with so there are a lot of 480 00:23:10,990 --> 00:23:07,010 reasons the people are hunting for 481 00:23:13,180 --> 00:23:11,000 Giants but many of them decide that 482 00:23:14,410 --> 00:23:13,190 because 19th century people believed 483 00:23:14,980 --> 00:23:14,420 that the mountains were the work of 484 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:14,990 giants 485 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:18,050 therefore 20th and 21st century elites 486 00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:20,330 are hiding that truth and that the 487 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:22,400 Giants story must be true on account of 488 00:23:30,190 --> 00:23:27,490 it being old so there is a large 489 00:23:33,130 --> 00:23:30,200 contingent of people who especially 490 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:33,140 online put up YouTube videos and write 491 00:23:39,130 --> 00:23:36,710 blog posts and online articles 492 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:39,140 advocating for this but when you look 493 00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:41,330 into their research it's almost always 494 00:23:46,420 --> 00:23:44,000 reliant on these old 19th century ideas 495 00:23:51,610 --> 00:23:46,430 that originally grew out of 19th century 496 00:23:54,750 --> 00:23:51,620 racism it is so true that some of these 497 00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:54,760 ideas are still held by really elite 498 00:23:59,890 --> 00:23:56,720 circles and I don't want to go into 499 00:24:02,440 --> 00:23:59,900 names but it seems like some very 500 00:24:06,820 --> 00:24:02,450 powerful individuals still believe a lot 501 00:24:09,670 --> 00:24:06,830 of this stuff why is it so pervasive 502 00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:09,680 among these higher circles well that 503 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:11,270 depends on what you're defining it the 504 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:13,130 elite if you're talking about people on 505 00:24:18,340 --> 00:24:15,170 the History Channel is being elite then 506 00:24:21,090 --> 00:24:18,350 I suppose that might be the case but I'm 507 00:24:24,090 --> 00:24:21,100 not aware of any actual academic 508 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:24,100 or political elites who believe in mound 509 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:28,390 builder that's today yeah it's more it's 510 00:24:34,830 --> 00:24:31,650 more archeological organizations and 511 00:24:36,180 --> 00:24:34,840 wealthy members within those that that 512 00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:36,190 comes to mind but you're absolutely 513 00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:38,950 right there's but it seems that in 514 00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:42,720 certain circles these strange ideas are 515 00:24:49,890 --> 00:24:47,500 considered reality there are certainly 516 00:24:55,049 --> 00:24:49,900 some wealthy people who have very odd 517 00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:55,059 ideas and there are individuals who have 518 00:24:59,029 --> 00:24:56,710 put a lot of time and effort and money 519 00:25:01,380 --> 00:24:59,039 into trying to prove them true I 520 00:25:05,539 --> 00:25:01,390 wouldn't say that there is any sort of 521 00:25:08,850 --> 00:25:05,549 elite organization hunting giants but um 522 00:25:11,220 --> 00:25:08,860 and certainly mainstream archeologists 523 00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:11,230 have no interest in pursuing this 524 00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:13,360 particular line on account of it you 525 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:17,470 know not being true but that hasn't 526 00:25:23,820 --> 00:25:18,970 stopped some of the people who are 527 00:25:26,610 --> 00:25:23,830 behind the books that become bestsellers 528 00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:26,620 and the TV shows that promote these 529 00:25:32,370 --> 00:25:29,289 ideas from embracing some of the other 530 00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:32,380 ideas of history and it's an open 531 00:25:38,430 --> 00:25:34,590 question why anyone would particularly 532 00:25:42,690 --> 00:25:38,440 fall victim to these extreme ideas I 533 00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:42,700 mean it's often they're often 534 00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:44,320 accusations hurled that people who 535 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:46,240 believe in this must be racist and 536 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:48,490 they're trying to oppose Native 537 00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:51,010 Americans I don't think that it's the 538 00:25:54,930 --> 00:25:53,049 case that most people are explicit who 539 00:25:57,330 --> 00:25:54,940 believe in this are explicitly being 540 00:26:00,480 --> 00:25:57,340 racist so much as the they're not aware 541 00:26:03,210 --> 00:26:00,490 of where the ideas came from or how they 542 00:26:06,450 --> 00:26:03,220 were used in the past or the lack of 543 00:26:09,419 --> 00:26:06,460 actual evidence that supported them at 544 00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:09,429 the time that they were proposed so my 545 00:26:16,669 --> 00:26:13,840 sense is that the racist ideas you see 546 00:26:19,620 --> 00:26:16,679 in it tends to be more structural 547 00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:19,630 because of when and how these ideas were 548 00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:22,559 created they bring with them certain 549 00:26:28,830 --> 00:26:25,360 assumptions and certain consequences 550 00:26:33,210 --> 00:26:28,840 that they're modern advocates don't 551 00:26:38,970 --> 00:26:36,419 yes and do you do you think that these 552 00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:38,980 beliefs in strange things like the 553 00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:41,950 giants like and there's there's a lot of 554 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:43,390 other things that go along with that I 555 00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:47,530 know that in Utah where I grew up for a 556 00:26:52,649 --> 00:26:50,049 lot of my life the Giants are just kind 557 00:26:55,230 --> 00:26:52,659 of a thing that was somewhat accepted as 558 00:26:58,169 --> 00:26:55,240 oh it's probably true and that they were 559 00:27:03,419 --> 00:26:58,179 in caves in Utah and it's very pervasive 560 00:27:07,850 --> 00:27:03,429 it certainly the case that old ideas 561 00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:07,860 tend to linger on so ideas that were 562 00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:11,440 popular among the elites in the 19th 563 00:27:17,610 --> 00:27:14,799 century trickle down and become part of 564 00:27:20,010 --> 00:27:17,620 the common folklore and we see this not 565 00:27:23,180 --> 00:27:20,020 just in this particular case but across 566 00:27:27,289 --> 00:27:23,190 the spectrum that's what were 567 00:27:29,850 --> 00:27:27,299 cutting-edge ideas 100 or 150 years ago 568 00:27:33,930 --> 00:27:29,860 sort of trickle down and become folk 569 00:27:36,930 --> 00:27:33,940 magic and folk beliefs later on until 570 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:36,940 finally they reimburse on the Internet 571 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:44,650 but what we see is that people don't 572 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:46,570 always have access to the latest and 573 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:48,970 best information and there's sort of a 574 00:27:56,779 --> 00:27:54,690 lag time culturally between what is the 575 00:28:00,029 --> 00:27:56,789 cutting-edge research going on in 576 00:28:06,770 --> 00:28:00,039 academia and what we see on the street 577 00:28:10,430 --> 00:28:06,780 so when people talk about strange ideas 578 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:10,440 they have this sense that they were once 579 00:28:18,510 --> 00:28:14,850 accepted and were once prestigious and 580 00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:18,520 so they sort of continue on when you 581 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:22,150 read popular books about giants and 582 00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:24,250 mountains and that sort of thing you see 583 00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:26,080 this constant appeal to the authority of 584 00:28:32,430 --> 00:28:28,510 19th century scientists because their 585 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:32,440 reputation sort of follows down the 586 00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:34,090 centuries and even though their ideas 587 00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:37,600 were wrong there long ago reputation as 588 00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:39,760 the great men of science and as the 589 00:28:45,970 --> 00:28:42,640 serious scholars of the day sort of 590 00:28:49,769 --> 00:28:45,980 gives their old outdated ideas this 591 00:28:52,299 --> 00:28:49,779 sanctity and their this air that um 592 00:28:54,850 --> 00:28:52,309 there's something profound to those 593 00:28:57,220 --> 00:28:54,860 ideas even though they were proven wrong 594 00:28:58,810 --> 00:28:57,230 I wanted to ask you a little bit 595 00:29:02,500 --> 00:28:58,820 different line here I wanted to ask you 596 00:29:05,049 --> 00:29:02,510 about the Jefferson Mound and was it 597 00:29:06,850 --> 00:29:05,059 John Bartram could you tell our 598 00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:06,860 listeners a little bit about that and 599 00:29:12,419 --> 00:29:09,070 the ins and outs of how interesting that 600 00:29:15,810 --> 00:29:12,429 situation arose well Thomas Jefferson 601 00:29:17,740 --> 00:29:15,820 there was a mountain that he knew of on 602 00:29:20,980 --> 00:29:17,750 the property that would eventually 603 00:29:22,629 --> 00:29:20,990 become Monticello and he knew about it 604 00:29:25,509 --> 00:29:22,639 from the time that he was a kid 605 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:25,519 and eventually he decided that he would 606 00:29:31,690 --> 00:29:28,250 want to dig into the mound and see what 607 00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:31,700 was inside so Thomas Jefferson actually 608 00:29:37,570 --> 00:29:34,220 invented much of what we would recognize 609 00:29:39,159 --> 00:29:37,580 today as archaeology as part of his 610 00:29:41,710 --> 00:29:39,169 investigation into the mound 611 00:29:45,419 --> 00:29:41,720 he conducted one of the first carefully 612 00:29:48,669 --> 00:29:45,429 controlled excavations in world history 613 00:29:50,769 --> 00:29:48,679 by comparison the Europeans were simply 614 00:29:53,169 --> 00:29:50,779 digging holes and trying to extract as 615 00:29:55,419 --> 00:29:53,179 much treasure as possible and Jefferson 616 00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:55,429 was carefully cutting perfectly straight 617 00:29:59,769 --> 00:29:57,260 lines through the mound a study district 618 00:30:02,740 --> 00:29:59,779 tigress II and removing layers very 619 00:30:07,419 --> 00:30:02,750 carefully to try to evaluate each layer 620 00:30:09,549 --> 00:30:07,429 of construction so Thomas Jefferson set 621 00:30:12,250 --> 00:30:09,559 the template for modern archaeology and 622 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:12,260 investigating amount and he was the one 623 00:30:19,509 --> 00:30:15,529 who was able to determine for the first 624 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:19,519 time in scientific detail all of the 625 00:30:25,570 --> 00:30:22,730 evidence that shows why the mound had 626 00:30:26,710 --> 00:30:25,580 been built by Native Americans and one 627 00:30:28,629 --> 00:30:26,720 of the most interesting things about 628 00:30:30,930 --> 00:30:28,639 that is that even though Thomas 629 00:30:33,340 --> 00:30:30,940 Jefferson laid all of this out in 630 00:30:36,370 --> 00:30:33,350 exquisite detail in his notes on the 631 00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:36,380 state of Virginia and even though all 632 00:30:40,060 --> 00:30:38,510 that information was widely available it 633 00:30:44,049 --> 00:30:40,070 had been reprinted in the Encyclopedia 634 00:30:47,350 --> 00:30:44,059 Britannica people didn't want to believe 635 00:30:52,299 --> 00:30:47,360 it and so they made up stories about it 636 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:52,309 and it took more than 100 years for 637 00:30:56,049 --> 00:30:54,250 people begin excavating mounds 638 00:30:57,850 --> 00:30:56,059 scientifically again and coming to the 639 00:30:59,980 --> 00:30:57,860 exact same conclusions based on the 640 00:31:02,710 --> 00:30:59,990 exact same results 641 00:31:05,890 --> 00:31:02,720 and that testifies to the power of 642 00:31:10,180 --> 00:31:05,900 belief over evidence and the convenient 643 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:10,190 lie over the inconvenient truth Wow it's 644 00:31:14,169 --> 00:31:11,210 just mind-blowing 645 00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:14,179 and to ask a question about some of 646 00:31:20,169 --> 00:31:17,120 these upper echelon societies of the 647 00:31:22,510 --> 00:31:20,179 time many of which still exist and the 648 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:22,520 possibility of basically these ideas 649 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:24,650 being kind of like a kind of like a 650 00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:26,570 secret society in a way I mean Thomas 651 00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:29,840 Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were 652 00:31:34,990 --> 00:31:31,600 members of the American Philosophical 653 00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:35,000 society and this society continues on to 654 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:37,910 this day there's no conspiracy involved 655 00:31:44,140 --> 00:31:40,970 there's no secret society holding mound 656 00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:44,150 builder and giant beliefs these ideas 657 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:46,880 weren't secret back then and they are 658 00:31:51,220 --> 00:31:49,130 secret now they were widely published in 659 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:51,230 newspapers and magazines and academic 660 00:31:58,299 --> 00:31:54,650 journals and books everybody who was 661 00:32:00,760 --> 00:31:58,309 anybody in the early 19th century was 662 00:32:03,220 --> 00:32:00,770 fully aware of and many were participant 663 00:32:07,330 --> 00:32:03,230 in the conversation about the mound 664 00:32:09,070 --> 00:32:07,340 builders so it wasn't a secret it was 665 00:32:11,980 --> 00:32:09,080 the very first publication of the 666 00:32:14,950 --> 00:32:11,990 Smithsonian Institution devoted to the 667 00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:14,960 question of who built the mounds amount 668 00:32:20,530 --> 00:32:18,470 exploration the academic journals were 669 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:20,540 filled with articles about it the 670 00:32:25,150 --> 00:32:23,330 newspapers reported on debates over who 671 00:32:27,790 --> 00:32:25,160 was the real builder of the mounds and 672 00:32:30,330 --> 00:32:27,800 so on and the most popular book in the 673 00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:30,340 United States one of the best-selling 674 00:32:38,650 --> 00:32:36,110 history books of the 1830s was Josiah 675 00:32:41,380 --> 00:32:38,660 priests American antiquities which was 676 00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:41,390 focused largely on the question of which 677 00:32:47,530 --> 00:32:44,230 old world cultures we could ascribe 678 00:32:49,630 --> 00:32:47,540 ancient American wonders to so it wasn't 679 00:32:53,470 --> 00:32:49,640 a secret in any way shape or form it was 680 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:53,480 the common belief at the time much the 681 00:33:01,840 --> 00:32:57,610 way in the 20th century there were 682 00:33:04,030 --> 00:33:01,850 beliefs we'll imagine say Freudian 683 00:33:05,950 --> 00:33:04,040 psychology which has largely been 684 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:05,960 replaced but in the 20th century 685 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:07,730 everybody knew about Freudian 686 00:33:13,650 --> 00:33:09,490 psychoanalysis and 687 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:13,660 all of the on claims of Sigmund Freud 688 00:33:19,470 --> 00:33:15,850 made that were widely accepted by elites 689 00:33:21,510 --> 00:33:19,480 and laypeople alike and now a half 690 00:33:23,730 --> 00:33:21,520 century after the heyday of Freudian 691 00:33:26,010 --> 00:33:23,740 psychoanalysis we look back and sort of 692 00:33:28,590 --> 00:33:26,020 say well why people really believe that 693 00:33:31,710 --> 00:33:28,600 back then it's kind of the same idea 694 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:31,720 there was a widespread very popular 695 00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:34,330 belief and it infected society from the 696 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:36,640 top to the bottom until one day it 697 00:33:41,790 --> 00:33:39,490 didn't I like that that's so true it did 698 00:33:45,090 --> 00:33:41,800 in fact it and that top to the bottom 699 00:33:47,790 --> 00:33:45,100 trickled down these ideas were held true 700 00:33:49,260 --> 00:33:47,800 by lost races of mountain builders or 701 00:33:52,140 --> 00:33:49,270 Giants and that sort of thing 702 00:33:54,330 --> 00:33:52,150 correct and Benjamin Benjamin Franklin 703 00:34:01,140 --> 00:33:54,340 didn't believe it later people thought 704 00:34:03,419 --> 00:34:01,150 he did because a guy forged a document 705 00:34:05,669 --> 00:34:03,429 alleging that Benjamin Franklin had 706 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:05,679 endorsed the mound builder myth and 707 00:34:09,690 --> 00:34:07,570 thought that a comet had destroyed the 708 00:34:11,700 --> 00:34:09,700 mound builder civilization but that was 709 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:11,710 all fake people believed this because 710 00:34:15,540 --> 00:34:13,810 they thought the documents were real but 711 00:34:20,609 --> 00:34:15,550 they weren't it was just a plagiarism 712 00:34:24,030 --> 00:34:20,619 that a French expatriate had written in 713 00:34:25,740 --> 00:34:24,040 one of those books okay yeah so it may 714 00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:25,750 have been an issue of history kind of 715 00:34:29,220 --> 00:34:27,730 going back and that makes sense people 716 00:34:31,369 --> 00:34:29,230 trying to change it for their own 717 00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:31,379 benefit and that's you know 718 00:34:36,780 --> 00:34:33,280 fast-forwarding to another you know 719 00:34:38,250 --> 00:34:36,790 somebody who was also a president and a 720 00:34:41,550 --> 00:34:38,260 member of some of the same groups as 721 00:34:45,149 --> 00:34:41,560 Benjamin Franklin who propagated this 722 00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:45,159 was Abraham Lincoln yeah Abraham Lincoln 723 00:34:50,609 --> 00:34:48,639 and one of his notebooks wrote about he 724 00:34:53,849 --> 00:34:50,619 wrote something that somewhat ambiguous 725 00:34:58,560 --> 00:34:53,859 because it's not particularly clear but 726 00:35:00,330 --> 00:34:58,570 the most obvious reading of his notes on 727 00:35:02,849 --> 00:35:00,340 Niagara Falls is that he was referring 728 00:35:05,130 --> 00:35:02,859 to the idea that the American mounds 729 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:05,140 were the repositories of the bones of 730 00:35:10,740 --> 00:35:07,410 the lost race of giants the nepheline um 731 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:10,750 I don't think that particular reference 732 00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:12,490 is enough to conclude that he was 733 00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:15,190 obsessed with giants or believed in the 734 00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:17,440 lost race of mound builders per se so 735 00:35:23,539 --> 00:35:20,830 much as that he was aware of the broader 736 00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:23,549 cultural context that was discussing 737 00:35:30,210 --> 00:35:27,730 the ideas at the time and whether 738 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:30,220 poetically or not he included that 739 00:35:35,970 --> 00:35:31,930 reference in his discussion of Niagara 740 00:35:37,950 --> 00:35:35,980 Falls and the grandeur that he hopes to 741 00:35:39,779 --> 00:35:37,960 find there but did not he was not 742 00:35:42,180 --> 00:35:39,789 impressed by Niagara Falls and he 743 00:35:45,870 --> 00:35:42,190 thought that things like mountains were 744 00:35:48,359 --> 00:35:45,880 much more interesting it's it's very 745 00:35:50,099 --> 00:35:48,369 interesting that you know the belief I 746 00:35:52,170 --> 00:35:50,109 can see where it comes at a prehistoric 747 00:35:55,319 --> 00:35:52,180 race that built these elaborate 748 00:35:57,569 --> 00:35:55,329 ceremonial rounds we're in Ohio and 749 00:35:59,339 --> 00:35:57,579 Mississippi and I think in the book it 750 00:36:03,450 --> 00:35:59,349 mentions that in Mississippi a kind of 751 00:36:06,109 --> 00:36:03,460 reached a grand scale well that was true 752 00:36:10,910 --> 00:36:06,119 across the United States at the time it 753 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:10,920 it's not that it was like a panic Hoover 754 00:36:20,579 --> 00:36:15,210 true races mound builders it's more 755 00:36:22,589 --> 00:36:20,589 along the lines of what people accept is 756 00:36:25,170 --> 00:36:22,599 true you have to remember that at the 757 00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:25,180 time this is what was being taught in 758 00:36:29,579 --> 00:36:27,460 high school textbooks when kids went to 759 00:36:32,190 --> 00:36:29,589 school they read that the first 760 00:36:34,319 --> 00:36:32,200 Americans were a lost race of mound 761 00:36:37,470 --> 00:36:34,329 builders who probably came from Europe 762 00:36:40,319 --> 00:36:37,480 were probably white and that they were 763 00:36:41,819 --> 00:36:40,329 just killed off by angry bloodthirsty 764 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:41,829 Native Americans who deserve to be 765 00:36:47,609 --> 00:36:43,930 destroyed and that's what they were 766 00:36:51,299 --> 00:36:47,619 talking school so when you talk about 767 00:36:53,819 --> 00:36:51,309 people being mad for the idea that's not 768 00:36:55,170 --> 00:36:53,829 really the case so much as it's what 769 00:36:57,210 --> 00:36:55,180 they believe because that's what their 770 00:36:59,160 --> 00:36:57,220 culture taught them it was in the 771 00:37:00,839 --> 00:36:59,170 textbooks it was in the newspapers it 772 00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:00,849 was in the magazines the president of 773 00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:02,910 the United States Andrew Jackson 774 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:05,920 referred to it he alluded to it in the 775 00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:07,930 State of the Union address it was just 776 00:37:12,569 --> 00:37:10,720 everywhere and because it was such a 777 00:37:15,569 --> 00:37:12,579 widespread belief promoted at every 778 00:37:18,690 --> 00:37:15,579 level of culture it becomes a pervasive 779 00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:18,700 idea that becomes accepted simply 780 00:37:24,420 --> 00:37:21,910 because if you victus and would you say 781 00:37:26,370 --> 00:37:24,430 that Andrew Jackson as far as presidents 782 00:37:29,609 --> 00:37:26,380 is concerned did the most to try to 783 00:37:34,140 --> 00:37:29,619 spread this in a literal sense 784 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:34,150 no president Harrison did a lot more in 785 00:37:38,430 --> 00:37:36,730 that he wrote an actual book 786 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:38,440 a lecture he gave that was published as 787 00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:41,370 a book on the subject and was much more 788 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:45,790 actively engaged in the question of the 789 00:37:52,770 --> 00:37:48,970 true origins of the mounds but Andrew 790 00:37:54,780 --> 00:37:52,780 Jackson unintentionally did more to 791 00:37:56,910 --> 00:37:54,790 spread it than anyone else because of 792 00:37:58,980 --> 00:37:56,920 his use of those ideas as part of a 793 00:38:03,150 --> 00:37:58,990 justification for the Indian Removal Act 794 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:03,160 and the Trail of Tears the legislation 795 00:38:09,870 --> 00:38:07,330 and enforcement of the removal of Native 796 00:38:12,540 --> 00:38:09,880 Americans from east of the Mississippi 797 00:38:17,340 --> 00:38:12,550 across to the Indian Territory and will 798 00:38:21,090 --> 00:38:17,350 become Oklahoma and that the arguments 799 00:38:23,460 --> 00:38:21,100 over Indian Removal helped to spread 800 00:38:26,070 --> 00:38:23,470 ideas of mound builder nests more than 801 00:38:29,580 --> 00:38:26,080 almost anything else because they had 802 00:38:33,230 --> 00:38:29,590 such a political utility much the way 803 00:38:36,300 --> 00:38:33,240 today's political controversies spawn 804 00:38:39,290 --> 00:38:36,310 rapid developments in fake news back 805 00:38:44,250 --> 00:38:39,300 then fake history was how you justified 806 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:44,260 the unjustifiable by appealing to a fake 807 00:38:47,790 --> 00:38:45,850 historical narrative that Native 808 00:38:49,530 --> 00:38:47,800 Americans weren't the original occupants 809 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:49,540 of the land but were in fact usurpers 810 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:51,730 who had killed off the peaceful glorious 811 00:38:57,870 --> 00:38:54,490 lost race of mound builders it created 812 00:39:00,660 --> 00:38:57,880 it creates the political motivation to 813 00:39:03,090 --> 00:39:00,670 push through Indian Removal to oppose 814 00:39:05,370 --> 00:39:03,100 Native American rights and to seize 815 00:39:08,430 --> 00:39:05,380 Native American lands you're restoring 816 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:08,440 it to people who it truly belongs to 817 00:39:16,580 --> 00:39:13,170 white Europeans so while Jackson wasn't 818 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:16,590 going around like Harrison and actively 819 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:20,890 advocating for for science to declare 820 00:39:26,990 --> 00:39:22,410 the mountains of work of white Europeans 821 00:39:29,790 --> 00:39:27,000 he spread those ideas through his 822 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:29,800 allusions to death and especially his 823 00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:32,530 supporters use of the myth to justify 824 00:39:40,380 --> 00:39:35,760 passage of the Indian Removal Act 825 00:39:44,130 --> 00:39:40,390 absolutely and since 1830 we see some of 826 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:44,140 this today as well since and this can be 827 00:39:48,660 --> 00:39:46,290 seen a little bit with you know 828 00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:48,670 widespread panic due to the current 829 00:39:52,770 --> 00:39:50,560 coronavirus situation but 830 00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:52,780 we see it in other areas as well do you 831 00:39:57,180 --> 00:39:54,700 have any advice just for the general 832 00:39:59,640 --> 00:39:57,190 listener as to how to avoid these 833 00:40:03,060 --> 00:39:59,650 pitfalls if there were a way to combat 834 00:40:05,340 --> 00:40:03,070 fake news fake history and bad ideas I'm 835 00:40:09,930 --> 00:40:05,350 sure somebody would have found it by now 836 00:40:12,450 --> 00:40:09,940 unfortunately when powerful people are 837 00:40:14,370 --> 00:40:12,460 able to save culture to their own ends 838 00:40:16,650 --> 00:40:14,380 it becomes very difficult to distinguish 839 00:40:19,220 --> 00:40:16,660 fact from fiction and when that happens 840 00:40:21,420 --> 00:40:19,230 it has widespread societal consequences 841 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:21,430 if you can't trust what people are 842 00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:24,370 saying and obvious facts are 843 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:28,000 contradicted by stories it creates a 844 00:40:37,290 --> 00:40:32,770 trust gap that lingers on and we see 845 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:37,300 that both today and in the 19th century 846 00:40:44,430 --> 00:40:41,050 context one of the consequences of the 847 00:40:47,130 --> 00:40:44,440 mountain building myth for the public 848 00:40:51,260 --> 00:40:47,140 understanding of science is that a break 849 00:40:54,690 --> 00:40:51,270 between popular belief and academic 850 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:54,700 understanding of history in the story of 851 00:40:58,370 --> 00:40:56,410 the mound builder myth for a long time 852 00:41:01,320 --> 00:40:58,380 it was the story of how the public and 853 00:41:03,870 --> 00:41:01,330 academics worked together to create 854 00:41:06,810 --> 00:41:03,880 support and defend this idea but at the 855 00:41:12,140 --> 00:41:06,820 end of the 19th century the Smithsonian 856 00:41:14,670 --> 00:41:12,150 Institution breaks that connection by 857 00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:14,680 conducting a broad survey of American 858 00:41:21,770 --> 00:41:17,920 mounds and determining to the 859 00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:21,780 satisfaction of almost everyone who was 860 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:25,180 highly educated and had the credentials 861 00:41:30,750 --> 00:41:28,210 and degrees to follow along that the 862 00:41:32,820 --> 00:41:30,760 mounted work Native Americans who bought 863 00:41:35,370 --> 00:41:32,830 the Smithsonian's work was largely 864 00:41:36,750 --> 00:41:35,380 confined to the academic elite they were 865 00:41:38,670 --> 00:41:36,760 the ones who did afford the books and 866 00:41:41,010 --> 00:41:38,680 could read the books and they were 867 00:41:43,230 --> 00:41:41,020 hardly discussed outside of that 868 00:41:46,380 --> 00:41:43,240 academic elite so from the perspective 869 00:41:49,410 --> 00:41:46,390 of the everyday American it looked like 870 00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:49,420 suddenly all of the academics had 871 00:41:53,070 --> 00:41:51,760 completely changed their minds and we're 872 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:53,080 now telling them that everything they 873 00:41:59,790 --> 00:41:56,650 had been taught in school was wrong so 874 00:42:01,560 --> 00:41:59,800 you see this sort of break between the 875 00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:01,570 popular understanding of American 876 00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:04,480 prehistory who really built the balance 877 00:42:10,170 --> 00:42:06,310 and what the professors and the 878 00:42:12,060 --> 00:42:10,180 scientists now understood and that never 879 00:42:15,170 --> 00:42:12,070 really healed that sort of division 880 00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:15,180 between popular and scientific 881 00:42:18,930 --> 00:42:17,710 understanding and it wasn't just the 882 00:42:21,810 --> 00:42:18,940 story of the mountain that had this 883 00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:21,820 happen Charles Darwin's theory of 884 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:24,160 evolution created a similar break 885 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:26,770 between popular understanding of what it 886 00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:29,010 meant to be human and the scientific 887 00:42:36,020 --> 00:42:32,800 understanding of human origins but it's 888 00:42:40,650 --> 00:42:36,030 the succession of these breaks between 889 00:42:43,260 --> 00:42:40,660 elite academic ideas and popular 890 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:43,270 understanding of history they came one 891 00:42:48,170 --> 00:42:45,490 after the next after the next not just 892 00:42:52,010 --> 00:42:48,180 evolution not just the mounds but 893 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:52,020 geology which replaced Noah's Flood with 894 00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:54,970 uniformitarianism and even with Sigmund 895 00:43:00,570 --> 00:42:58,330 Freud's psychoanalysis which challenged 896 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:00,580 the understanding of the human mind 897 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:02,650 all of these breaks come one after the 898 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:03,970 next after the next at the end of the 899 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:06,490 19th century and by the end of that time 900 00:43:14,370 --> 00:43:10,570 you see that popular culture has one set 901 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:14,380 of beliefs and elite academic culture at 902 00:43:19,740 --> 00:43:17,050 a different understanding and throughout 903 00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:19,750 the 20th century these two never really 904 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:24,400 came back together so a lot of what we 905 00:43:31,230 --> 00:43:27,250 see at the division between the 906 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:31,240 so-called elites and the masses what's 907 00:43:36,859 --> 00:43:33,850 often characterized as American anti 908 00:43:42,109 --> 00:43:36,869 intellectualism is really a result of 909 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:42,119 this pretty profound break between 910 00:43:50,670 --> 00:43:46,090 science and what people thought they 911 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:50,680 knew before these really profound 912 00:43:58,290 --> 00:43:54,850 changes occurred gosh not not a lot has 913 00:44:00,300 --> 00:43:58,300 changed since the the King lived up on 914 00:44:03,270 --> 00:44:00,310 the castle and the peasants lived down 915 00:44:05,460 --> 00:44:03,280 in the field say it's not the peasant 916 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:05,470 living in the field and not completely 917 00:44:10,020 --> 00:44:07,570 where there is certainly a communication 918 00:44:13,770 --> 00:44:10,030 issue where information wasn't being 919 00:44:15,180 --> 00:44:13,780 communicated down from the elite 920 00:44:17,930 --> 00:44:15,190 producers of knowledge down to the 921 00:44:20,510 --> 00:44:17,940 consumers of knowledge as cleanly and 922 00:44:22,010 --> 00:44:20,520 well as it could have been and in steps 923 00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:22,020 were taking in the 20th century to try 924 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:25,680 to fix that but part of the problem is 925 00:44:31,310 --> 00:44:27,930 that the education system didn't keep up 926 00:44:33,020 --> 00:44:31,320 with changes and even today when you 927 00:44:35,180 --> 00:44:33,030 listen to a lot of the people who 928 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:35,190 advocate for these extreme ideas talk 929 00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:37,050 they're constantly talking about the 930 00:44:40,580 --> 00:44:38,910 textbooks are wrong the textbooks the 931 00:44:42,350 --> 00:44:40,590 textbooks as though the textbooks were 932 00:44:45,230 --> 00:44:42,360 somehow frozen when they were kids in 933 00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:45,240 the 1960s and that's part of the problem 934 00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:47,250 that once you leave school 935 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:49,950 for most Americans about 2f they don't 936 00:44:55,310 --> 00:44:52,890 really learn about new ideas and new 937 00:44:57,950 --> 00:44:55,320 things so their understanding gets 938 00:45:00,050 --> 00:44:57,960 frozen in whatever the paradigm whatever 939 00:45:02,180 --> 00:45:00,060 the ideas were at the time that they 940 00:45:03,950 --> 00:45:02,190 were in school and given the fact that 941 00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:03,960 we don't have haven't replaced textbooks 942 00:45:10,460 --> 00:45:08,640 very regularly in America those ideas 943 00:45:12,260 --> 00:45:10,470 might not even have been current in the 944 00:45:13,850 --> 00:45:12,270 time they were in school but for example 945 00:45:15,710 --> 00:45:13,860 when I was in school are still using 946 00:45:18,050 --> 00:45:15,720 textbooks from the 1960 and then I was 947 00:45:22,730 --> 00:45:18,060 in school in the 1990s so you're looking 948 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:22,740 at you know a huge land time between the 949 00:45:28,070 --> 00:45:25,410 present and where those ideas that 950 00:45:29,599 --> 00:45:28,080 people get come from so it's not the you 951 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:29,609 know a peasant or in the field the 952 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:31,410 elites are just sort of dancing on top 953 00:45:35,930 --> 00:45:34,170 of them but rather than there's a there 954 00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:35,940 are structural issues that are involved 955 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:38,640 in the breakdown between the production 956 00:45:44,210 --> 00:45:40,530 of knowledge and its transference 957 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:44,220 to broader society yeah it's from a from 958 00:45:48,650 --> 00:45:46,290 an educational standpoint this is so 959 00:45:50,510 --> 00:45:48,660 reminiscent of the power structure that 960 00:45:52,820 --> 00:45:50,520 came from like skullenbones and that 961 00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:52,830 closely-knit you know elite in their 962 00:46:00,859 --> 00:45:56,160 beliefs into the CIA but Jason you have 963 00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:00,869 a lot of interesting works and I wanted 964 00:46:04,070 --> 00:46:02,640 to ask you what you were currently 965 00:46:07,089 --> 00:46:04,080 working on or if you have any other 966 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:07,099 exciting projects coming along 967 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:09,210 well my current book is called 968 00:46:13,730 --> 00:46:11,010 mountain-building Beth from the 969 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:13,740 University of Oklahoma press and it is a 970 00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:15,930 story about the history of the mountain 971 00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:18,710 wilderness and what we can learn from 972 00:46:26,030 --> 00:46:23,250 the interesting path of the story took 973 00:46:29,420 --> 00:46:26,040 from its origins through the Trail of 974 00:46:30,980 --> 00:46:29,430 Tears down to the incomplete efforts of 975 00:46:31,539 --> 00:46:30,990 the Smithsonian to set the record 976 00:46:34,549 --> 00:46:31,549 straight 977 00:46:36,829 --> 00:46:34,559 I'm also working on a new book on the 978 00:46:38,839 --> 00:46:36,839 legends of the pyramids that will look 979 00:46:41,299 --> 00:46:38,849 at the strange stories that people have 980 00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:41,309 told about the Giza pyramids over the 981 00:46:46,130 --> 00:46:43,710 last couple of thousand years and how 982 00:46:49,670 --> 00:46:46,140 many evil ideas about the pyramids have 983 00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:49,680 shaped popular understanding of what the 984 00:46:53,870 --> 00:46:51,839 Giza pyramids were and what their 985 00:46:56,990 --> 00:46:53,880 purpose was ancient astronaut story 986 00:46:59,870 --> 00:46:57,000 about how aliens were involved it all 987 00:47:03,230 --> 00:46:59,880 originates in a medieval story that was 988 00:47:05,599 --> 00:47:03,240 invented around 1000 AD it's been an 989 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:05,609 honor to have you on Jason I appreciate 990 00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:08,010 you coming on the podcast and telling us 991 00:47:13,069 --> 00:47:10,049 more about this and where can people 992 00:47:15,230 --> 00:47:13,079 keep up with you online and support you 993 00:47:18,109 --> 00:47:15,240 well it was great speaking with you too 994 00:47:21,140 --> 00:47:18,119 you can find me at my website jason 995 00:47:23,780 --> 00:47:21,150 Colavito comm and that's where you can 996 00:47:26,089 --> 00:47:23,790 find my blog links to all of my books 997 00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:26,099 and the latest updates on things that 998 00:47:31,609 --> 00:47:28,559 I'm working on there you have it Jason 999 00:47:35,329 --> 00:47:31,619 Colavito the mound builder myth and a 1000 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:35,339 fake history that's been inserted into 1001 00:47:40,579 --> 00:47:38,010 our past well keep up with Jason 1002 00:47:42,230 --> 00:47:40,589 Colavito at Jason Colavito comm while 1003 00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:42,240 you're at it definitely check out hero 1004 00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:45,359 paranormal com in fact currently we have 1005 00:47:51,890 --> 00:47:48,510 a giveaway of a space wolf research 1006 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:51,900 hoodie North Face hoodie and you can 1007 00:47:56,900 --> 00:47:54,210 enter that by doing exactly that go to 1008 00:48:00,140 --> 00:47:56,910 hero paranormal comm or hero paranormal 1009 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:00,150 on Facebook like share go to youtube 1010 00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:02,970 hero paranormal like and subscribe and 1011 00:48:08,660 --> 00:48:06,510 you are automatically entered last but 1012 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:08,670 not least sometimes youtube is a little 1013 00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:10,290 bit slow to download because of the 1014 00:48:15,319 --> 00:48:12,510 video aspect for a quick and easy way to 1015 00:48:19,790 --> 00:48:15,329 download hero paranormal anywhere you 1016 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:19,800 maybe go to hero paranormal pod beam 1017 00:48:25,820 --> 00:48:22,770 we also have patron availability there 1018 00:48:27,860 --> 00:48:25,830 for as little as a dollar and you get it 1019 00:48:28,310 --> 00:48:27,870 all so anyway check us out keep 1020 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:28,320 listening 1021 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:31,770 stay safe wash those hands screw 1022 00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:34,530 coronavirus well until next time folks 1023 00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:37,680 keep your eyes to the skies feet on the 1024 00:49:31,660 --> 00:48:40,110 ground don't forget to take a look 1025 00:49:35,150 --> 00:49:31,670 around you can kiss me with a burst 1026 00:49:49,890 --> 00:49:35,160 blast off from the time-machine like